Children and the Holy Spirit

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

HI have a read of this attatchment ... it appeared in January in Evangel, and I posted it on the training group ... but it rightly belongs here

any comments?

[Mike Harrowing]

5000 words!!

thats going to take me a while, i'll get back to you next month!...

[Dave Sunman]

Thanks for posting this. It is an interesting and thought provoking article. I read it as one already persuaded of the argument that the Holy Spirit is able to work in anyone regardless of age. Indeed if we believe that children are able to become Christians then (from my reading of Romans 8:9) they must be able to receive God's Holy Spirit.

In some ways the parameters set out at the beginning of the article were the most frustrating aspects of it. The necessary exclussion of many accounts that went just beyond the age limit and the caution with which non-biblical accounts were treated actually left few stories to back up the argument. The most compelling incidents all seem to be very contemporary and yet are also treated with caution as they are difficult to test and weigh before a suitable passage of time. It seemed to me that the paramenters were set so tightly that the evidence was insufficient to justify the conclusions. I would also have loved to see any accounts from the early church where the practice seems to have been more "ecumenical" and "charismatic".

My other concern, springing out of the article rather than relating to it, is that in churches, and particularly in charismatic churches, we tend to speak of the work of the Holy Spirit only in terms of the supernatural gifts he bestows. Please understand that I nail my colours to the mast as believing in and moving in charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, it is easy to give the impression that this is the only valid expression of the Spirit working in our lives. I appreciate that within the article it is harder to quantify and prove the fruit of the Spirit in anyone's life (particularly after the passage of time) and yet the work of the Holy Spirit encompasses so much more than just the gifts. In Scripture the Spirit brings new life through faith, character, unity and our resurrection at judgment day as well as gifts. Even within the gifts there are less dramatic ones such as faith, giving, serving, encouragement and administration. I know that coming from a background that was very sceptical to charismatic things and then swinging to the other extreme, I found it awkward that sometimes the only gifts that mattered were the exciting ones. This left me wanting those ones (much like those desiring tongues in Corinth) and devaluing all that God was doing in and through me.

Over the last 2 1/2 years we have seen the children's group in my church get involved in prophecy, prayer ministry, preaching, words of knowledge and speaking in tongues. Halleluia! We have also seen them grow in Christ and become more like Jesus which also seems to be part of the Spirit's work (2 Cor 3:18). Halleluia again!

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

thanks dave ... some good points there ... I agree with you about the frustration of the parameters, but what that leaves us with has to be fairly irrefutable evidence I feel.

Dave

[Dave Sunman]

I agree but then I was predisposed towards agreeing with the argument. I was hoping to widen the debate.

The other point that occurred to me after putting up my response was as to who the burden should be on in trying to understand what, if any, role the Holy Spirit may have in the life of a child. I know that, for the purposes of the article, one has to assume that the burden is on the one bringing the proposition, but I do wonder who is arguing the opposite position and what their arguments are. I know the cessationist arguments but are there those arguing that spiritual gifts are valid but only for adults? Alternatively is it just the case that these things are often assumed by church practice, for example baptising adult believers in many baptistic churches, saving ministry time for when the children are in their own classes, etc. Any thoughts?

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

HI came across these references in JOhn Wesleys Journals ... well actually an abbreviated form written by Harry Sprange ... thanks Harry !
By the way Harry's book Kingdom Kids ... about children in Revivial in Scotland through the centuries is brilliant, and perhaps what you were looking for Dave

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

I think that the other side in the debate is apathy, and the concept that children are just not interesting or capable until they get to be teenagers at least.
In other words it is a non vocalised concensus that needs to be challenged

more difficult than an opinion because there is nothing to get at

[Ruth Thomas]

Thanks Dave and Sheri for posting a fascinating article!

With any manifestation of the Holy Spirit (dramatic or otherwise), the hard question is always "how do you know it's the Holy Spirit and not just some natural process?" This applies more strongly with children than adults as their experience of natural processes is more limited -- they may think something is a miracle when an adult would say it's entirely within the scope of normality -- and their language is limited when they try to explain their view of their experiences. For instance, when John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb, this could have been an entirely natural foetal movement (quite common at around 6 months' gestation) and the only evidence we have to the contrary is the spiritual insight and words of an adult (Elizabeth). The unborn baby could hardly explain himself. By contrast, my 18-month-old son often makes wordlike noises that aren't English but I don't believe that he's speaking in an ecstatic tongue -- just babbling!

The best test I've ever come across for whether or not some manifestation really is the Holy Spirit or not is the one in Matthew 12:33, "the tree is known by its fruit". Which makes it especially unfortunate that this article excluded consideration of the fruits of the Spirit. But there was one comment about a series of visions etc among a group of children in China in the 1920s where the author considered the fact that the children's visions had a significant effect upon their entire city over a period of time, which does seem to vindicate the visions as being truly of God. There was also a comment about how they sometimes came out with "secret things" in public meetings and this turned people against them. Perhaps this is an example of an occasion when better adult guidance on how and when to use the gifts of the Spirit would have helped -- someone with more experience of how people normally react to having their sins exposed might have been able to direct such exposures to a more appropriate time and place, thus having a more positive outcome on people's lives.

So my reaction to the article ends up being: yes of course the Holy Spirit works among children; the more dramatic gifts may or may not be rarer among children than adults (no evidence); and children should always be cared for, taught and supervised by adults so that they learn to understand their gifts and use them appropriately. No great surprises there!

[Ali Campbell]

I was involved in the children's ministry at a national conference a few years ago . . . two boys came up to me during a session, 7 and 8 years old. One said to me "I think God is trying to tell me something" . . . He proceeded to describe a dream where a ball of fire flew into his tent and spelt out "Name of Child", then flew out again and flew in again to spell out "I have chosen you" - He asked me what it was God was trying to tell him?! I said, er, I don't know, go and pray about it some more and I will too . . . I then didn't think much more about it . . . the following day he, and his friend, came bounding up to me, "I know what God wants us to do - he wants us to pray for leaders, so can you get as many leaders together as you can so we can pray for them?" I got the teams together who were leading the 7-8s, and 9-10s work together, about 100 leaders, that evening . . . the two lads came along, I did a brief intro, explained they would like to pray for us - we sat down, they walked around the tent, starting at opposite ends and proceeded to lay hands on, and pray for every leader, it took them about 45 minutes to both get round everyone. I half watched / half prayed . . . tried to do both! As I observed, one lad very politely asked people's names and then prayed for them, the other lad just stood next to them and prayed quietly in tongues . . . when they had finished, they came back to me and said, "for our encouragement, can you just ask if anyone felt that God has spoken to them", I did so and about 3/4 of the hands went up - the lads punched the air, "yessss" they said (as a child might do!) and off they went . . .

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

Do you know what happened ? are we looking at an influx of leaders to china as missionaries? Fruit from this?

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

I agre with you Ruth ... I am one who feels that the far more significant work of the Holy Spirit is a changed and holy life ... but proving that from historical records is even more subjective!

I would far rather encourage the fruits of the spirit among children if I had to seek one or the other (though obviously it is both and, not either or).

Another example of preaching to the choir then ... if kids can and will be used by the Holy Spirit, how can we change the church's perception ... or do we need to?

[Ruth Thomas]

I was quite struck by Dave Sunman's comment above about what is just assumed, without real thought, by church practice. If the church has a specified time for exercising the gifts of the Spirit, and if that time always takes place when the children are out in age-related teaching sessions, then you exclude children by default rather than by real theology.

But possibly, given how easy it is for adults to manipulate children, there is some logic in this sort of exclusion. If a child hears a trusted adult say that they should be seeing visions, many children will think up a vision to please the adult -- it's not hard to invent one, or to make tongues-like sounds (many years ago I stopped trying to speak in tongues when I realised I was probably subconsciouly inventing the sounds myself, aided by some knowlege of linguistics). And it's very hard to get across "it's good if you do this" without implying "you should do this".

So perhaps we somehow need to expose children to the work of the Holy Spirit sufficiently that they know, at least a bit, what might happen, without putting any pressure on them that it ought to. Then when a child says they have had a vision or whatever, it's more likely to be genuine. Not sure quite how this could be done! What do you think?

[Dave and Sheri Gidney]

I think we need to start a new discussion ...

"How can I best get the children in my church to be in contact with the Holy Spirit and moving in all of the fruits and gifts that He wants for them?"

We all seem agreed that there is definitely a need, and that God WANTS this

I think you have picked up some of Daves points and made some challenging statements

So ... where do werecommend the church goes from here?